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	<title>Comments on: Creating CSS layouts using harsh language</title>
	<atom:link href="http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/</link>
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		<title>By: Russ</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-67</link>
		<dc:creator>Russ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2006 03:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-67</guid>
		<description>Tom, the article suggested that floats were harmful but offered no solutions. However, you still have choices. For example:

1. You could decide that floating large areas of content is wrong. This means that many multi-column layout options could not be used. You would still be able to lay out columns but you&#039;re options would be limited.

2. You could decide that, at this point in time, floating is one of the main tools at our disposal and that, while you know it is not ideal, it is better than being limited by the alternatives.

The final choice is up to you  :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Tom, the article suggested that floats were harmful but offered no solutions. However, you still have choices. For example:</p>
<p>1. You could decide that floating large areas of content is wrong. This means that many multi-column layout options could not be used. You would still be able to lay out columns but you&#8217;re options would be limited.</p>
<p>2. You could decide that, at this point in time, floating is one of the main tools at our disposal and that, while you know it is not ideal, it is better than being limited by the alternatives.</p>
<p>The final choice is up to you  <img src='http://www.maxdesign.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tom</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-66</link>
		<dc:creator>Tom</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 20 Feb 2006 02:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-66</guid>
		<description>So where does this put many of your Float Tutorials + Listamatic examples?
I understand what is being said, but I just can&#039;t see a real solution to this problem.....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So where does this put many of your Float Tutorials + Listamatic examples?<br />
I understand what is being said, but I just can&#8217;t see a real solution to this problem&#8230;..</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: meh</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-64</link>
		<dc:creator>meh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Feb 2006 09:30:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-64</guid>
		<description>Overuse of &quot;considered harmful&quot; phrase considered harmful.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Overuse of &#8220;considered harmful&#8221; phrase considered harmful.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Claire</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Claire</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2006 14:10:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-57</guid>
		<description>hehe we&#039;re going to have put a &quot;harsh language&quot; filters on a lot of sites now!

&quot;It means Web browsers (and specification authors) need to get details the same when those details shouldn&#039;t even matter.&quot; 

&quot;Authors&#039; dependence on very obscure details of how floats lay out means that those details can&#039;t be improved later&quot;

The devil is always in the details, they always matter ;) 

Without the clever people who have been reading and following the progress of CSS standards and dissecting the details ~ &quot;pushing the envelope&quot;, such little details might have gone ignored and everyone might still be using tables and not CSS + Positioning and CSS wouldn&#039;t be as widely accepted as it is.

It&#039;s been a hard slog getting developers to even accept CSS because of the positioning problems, does this kind of thinking suggest those of us who have upheld standards and supported the case FOR CSS in the last 10 years throw our hands up in the air and say we got it wrong, go back to abusing tables instead for positioning because the standards *might* have to be changed/improved and until then CSS really isn&#039;t ready?

I know which evil I&#039;ll be sticking with for now :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hehe we&#8217;re going to have put a &#8220;harsh language&#8221; filters on a lot of sites now!</p>
<p>&#8220;It means Web browsers (and specification authors) need to get details the same when those details shouldn&#8217;t even matter.&#8221; </p>
<p>&#8220;Authors&#8217; dependence on very obscure details of how floats lay out means that those details can&#8217;t be improved later&#8221;</p>
<p>The devil is always in the details, they always matter <img src='http://www.maxdesign.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' />  </p>
<p>Without the clever people who have been reading and following the progress of CSS standards and dissecting the details ~ &#8220;pushing the envelope&#8221;, such little details might have gone ignored and everyone might still be using tables and not CSS + Positioning and CSS wouldn&#8217;t be as widely accepted as it is.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s been a hard slog getting developers to even accept CSS because of the positioning problems, does this kind of thinking suggest those of us who have upheld standards and supported the case FOR CSS in the last 10 years throw our hands up in the air and say we got it wrong, go back to abusing tables instead for positioning because the standards *might* have to be changed/improved and until then CSS really isn&#8217;t ready?</p>
<p>I know which evil I&#8217;ll be sticking with for now <img src='http://www.maxdesign.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Jacques Distler</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacques Distler</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Feb 2006 06:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-54</guid>
		<description>Using floats for fancy positioning effects is an abuse, in the same way that using tables for layout is an abuse. While we&#039;re all waiting around for CSS4 to provide real positioning tools, we need to abuse *something* in order to achieve those effects today.

So I would put it to Mr. Barron: which is the lesser of two evils?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Using floats for fancy positioning effects is an abuse, in the same way that using tables for layout is an abuse. While we&#8217;re all waiting around for CSS4 to provide real positioning tools, we need to abuse *something* in order to achieve those effects today.</p>
<p>So I would put it to Mr. Barron: which is the lesser of two evils?</p>
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		<title>By: Nick Cowie</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-53</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick Cowie</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 08:21:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-53</guid>
		<description>And of course when you float a small piece of content, usually you also need to float the containing element. Because browsers will break layouts ( and different browsers break differently ) if the floated element falls outside the boundaries of a containing element. See &lt;a href=&quot;http://nickcowie.com/other/float.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://nickcowie.com/other/float.html&lt;/a&gt; for an example, and check in different browsers.

David Baron argues that using floats makes it harder to write browsers. If the major browsers can not agree on how a floated element which overflows it container appears, why does it make writing a browser more difficult. They do not have to apply consistant rules.

David&#039;s second point &quot;Makes it harder to improve Web standards&quot;, different browsers rendering how a floated element which overflows it&#039;s container appears makes it far harder to advance web standards than an overuse of floated elements to correct the problem.

Finally &quot;Reduces pressure for implementation of better technology&quot; states &quot;reduces pressure for standards organizations and browsers to develop such new solutions&quot; no if browser manufactures interpreted the standards the same way the first time (remember the box model) life would be easier for browser manufacturers, standards organizations and the people who write the pages.

Looks like I will be using a lot of harsh language</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And of course when you float a small piece of content, usually you also need to float the containing element. Because browsers will break layouts ( and different browsers break differently ) if the floated element falls outside the boundaries of a containing element. See <a href="http://nickcowie.com/other/float.html" rel="nofollow">http://nickcowie.com/other/float.html</a> for an example, and check in different browsers.</p>
<p>David Baron argues that using floats makes it harder to write browsers. If the major browsers can not agree on how a floated element which overflows it container appears, why does it make writing a browser more difficult. They do not have to apply consistant rules.</p>
<p>David&#8217;s second point &#8220;Makes it harder to improve Web standards&#8221;, different browsers rendering how a floated element which overflows it&#8217;s container appears makes it far harder to advance web standards than an overuse of floated elements to correct the problem.</p>
<p>Finally &#8220;Reduces pressure for implementation of better technology&#8221; states &#8220;reduces pressure for standards organizations and browsers to develop such new solutions&#8221; no if browser manufactures interpreted the standards the same way the first time (remember the box model) life would be easier for browser manufacturers, standards organizations and the people who write the pages.</p>
<p>Looks like I will be using a lot of harsh language</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Maxine</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-39</link>
		<dc:creator>Maxine</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 02:06:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-39</guid>
		<description>Russ, if anyone knows how to use the  tag, it&#039;s you. A pioneer, as always.

@Cam: glad wrap maybe, but masking tape? You could do yourself and injury....
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Russ, if anyone knows how to use the  tag, it&#8217;s you. A pioneer, as always.</p>
<p>@Cam: glad wrap maybe, but masking tape? You could do yourself and injury&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Ben Buchanan</title>
		<link>http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language/comment-page-1/#comment-38</link>
		<dc:creator>Ben Buchanan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2006 01:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.maxdesign.com.au/2006/02/03/harsh-language-2/#comment-38</guid>
		<description>That was my reaction too... &quot;sure, ok, so what do we use instead?&quot;

Although your way of saying it made me laugh out loud, so you win ;)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That was my reaction too&#8230; &#8220;sure, ok, so what do we use instead?&#8221;</p>
<p>Although your way of saying it made me laugh out loud, so you win <img src='http://www.maxdesign.com.au/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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